Flat Spins.... Question from a Novice + comment on aerobatics

[Raph]

Hiya fellas and gals,

A question on the flat spins....

1. How can you tell you are going to be in a flat spin?
2. Can an Aerobat get out of a flat spin, or in for that matter?
3. What is the standard procedure to get out of a flat-spin in an Aerobat or C-150.


Thanks in advance for your input...


Cordially,

Raph

Personally, I don't think that you can be a safe pilot without having done at least some aerobatics. So whatever people say about the "Nuts" who do aerobatics in planes and/or gliders, I just ignore...


P.S. I'm always cordial and curtious here in Aerobatics Forum.... whereas there are some crazy monkeys hanging around the other ones that I would rather avoid...

[WesJones]

Hi Raph,

Go out and get yourself a copy of Gene Beggs book entitled "Spins in the Pitts Special." It's an excellent and comprehensive explanation of spins in general and is the accepted standard for emergency spin recovery, "The Beggs-Mueller approach". There's a short section in this book specifically about the 150/Aerobat and some interesting behavior this aircraft demonstrates in spins to the left.

Gene's research into emergency spin behavior and this book has undoubtably saved lives.

Wes

[TomParsons]

Originally posted by Raph
A question on the flat spins....

1. How can you tell you are going to be in a flat spin?

If there's any power in during a spin, the nose will probably be higher than if the engine is idling, and this will help to flatten the spin- especially if the spin is upright/left or inverted/right (for airplanes with clockwise-turning props) due to the assist from gyroscopic forces.

This is why it's important to make sure the power is really off as part of a spin recovery. Even a little bit of power left in can flatten the spin and make recovery more difficult. One reason for this has to do with the airflow over the tail section in a flat spin. For many airplane designs, in a flat upright spin the rudder is "blanked", or in a location where the relative wind does not flow cleanly over much of the rudder surface. This makes the rudder, the primary flight control for spin recovery, less effective.

Tom P.

[Raph]

Thanks TOM that was really clear and I could visualize what you are saying.

I will however see if I can get the book that Wes suggests...


Thanks,

Raph

Excellent post Tom, I appreciate the explanation.

[WesJones]

By the way, the issue with the 150 is that if you hold it in the spin for a couple of turns, it will lock-in to a spin to the left and will not recover by releasing all the controls. Gene Beggs mentions in his book that he flew one through about 20 turns with his arms folded in front of him and his feet flat on the floor. A hands-on recovery stopped it in one turn. Apparently it will recover hands-off in spins to the right.

He mentions the Cessna 150 and the 170 aerobat as two planes that will not reliably recover using the Beggs-Mueller hands off approach. Once the spin is "locked in" as he puts it, the aircraft will not respond to full opposite rudder without application of the recommended hands-on approach.

[Raph]

Originally posted by WesJones
..............

He mentions the Cessna 150 and the 170 aerobat as two planes that will not reliably recover using the Beggs-Mueller hands off approach. Once the spin is "locked in" as he puts it, the aircraft will not respond to full opposite rudder without application of the recommended hands-on approach.

SAY Again?????


My instructor never told me that....

You mean that in C-150 with left spins will, the Cessna will not recover with full rudder....

WOW indeed.... I was told whatever spin, you neutralize the stick (or the stupid yolk) and then full rudder against....

I was not aware that this didn't work???

What else do you have to do other than full opposite rudder???



Raph

[WesJones]

The Beggs-Mueller emergency recovery is:

1. Power off (all the way and make sure)

2. remove your hands from the stick

3. apply full opposite rudder until rotation stops

4. neutralize rudder and recover to level.

What he's saying about the Aerobat and the 150 is that you can't just let go of the stick in fully developed spins to the left. Apparently the plane has a tendency to hold some pro-spin aileron in this case and the spin continues regardless of what you do with the rudder.

I personally have no experience in either airplane and I'm just passing along Begg's account.

[Raph]

So... what you are saying is that you have to keep you hand on the stick/yolk and keep it neutral....

that's what you are saying...?


BTW.... what idiot invented the Yolk....

IT'S USELESS.... I have 120 hours and still can't get used to the yolk.... It's completely unnatural !!!!!



Raph

[Mark Lander]

Raph, what I get out of Genes explanation, is that you need to use positive recovery techniques when you are in a fully developed spin, which is probably 3 turns or greater. Not just neutralize the controls as you can normally do in the cessna 150/152. You will have to actually push the yolk forward to break the stall, and use full opposite rudder to stop rotation as the cessna book says. I have done many spins in the 152, and it takes about 3 revolutions to really wind it up to a fully developed spin.

[N78PS]

There are a number of airplanes that Beggs-Muller does NOT work with. READ THE FLIGHT MANUAL FIRST. Zlins will spin until impact, as will T-6's. The best reference for spinning C-150's is William Kershner I understand.

The good news is that the airplanes we see at contests, Pitts', Extras, Decathlons, etc. generally do respond to Beggs-Muller. BUT READ THE FLIGHT MANUAL.

My experience is that ANY throttle above idle will defeat Beggs-Muller in my Pitts when I spin inverted. When I blow a hammer into an inverted rotation I have to make sure that the throttle is hard back to the idle stop. I can stop the recovery by bringing the throttle forward maybe 3/8" off the idle stop. Pull the throttle back and the airplane starts to recover again (go blow a hammer and check this out as you spin!).

Y'all be carefull up there!

[WMU Pilot]

I was just up the other day doing some spin training in the 172, the instructor insisted on entering the spin at full power - basically a power on stall gone wrong- even though that seemed a little unorthodox. He did this to tighten and accelerate the spin, and I did not notice any flattening of the spin.

[N78PS]

I would guess that your C-172 ride did not do more than 2 turns of spin. If so, you were still in the incipient phase and not the fully developed spin. I would also guess that you spun left as power in a Cessna makes it hard to spin right. You probably also did the spin with the yoke back. Cessna's prefer to spiral dive - be careful.

Cessna's are bigger and more massive than a Pitts. They have more inertia and it is spread out more across the airframe. The flat spin characteristics that you hear Pitts drivers talk about is a function of light airplane, big engine, big prop. Duplicating this in a Cessna will take a lot more altitude and more rotations. I would suggest caution. All of us Pitts guys have a LOT more spin training and experience than all most all CFI's. To get to be a CFI, you only have to do a very few spins in an very docile airplane. Only upright spins. Far short of the standard of training expected of a competition pilot.

When you get your ticket, hunt down an acro school and sign up for a couple of hours of spin training or an "upset" course.

[Raph]

N78PS

is absolutely right....

By the way... my first spin training was in a glider. I felt much more at ease with myself and became a more complete pilot as a result.

Now that I do some beginner aerobatic training, I feel even more that if you don't have some extra skills and can't at least execute a lazy-8 in your sleep with your eyes closed, then you should have no business taking passengers on a normal flight.... In emergency situations, aerobatic training will at least keep you from panic-ing.... and that could save your life.

Raph

[Mark Lander]

Well said N78PS...